So have we made our minds up yet? [POLITICS]

"djmt1" (djmt1)
06/21/2016 at 11:14 • Filed to: None

#StrongerTogether or #TakeBackControl

DISCUSSION (60)

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > djmt1
06/21/2016 at 11:24

#American #IDon’tGiveAFuck

Malanga > djmt1
06/21/2016 at 11:25

Personal belief? Countries should be separate and operate separately. But I'm not British and I don't understand the economic side of Brexit, so I can't say much.

scoob > djmt1
06/21/2016 at 11:31

How many Brits are on here anyway?

YOU’LL FIND OUT WHEN THE NEXT OPPO CENSUS COMES UP.

/ShamelessSelfPlug

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > djmt1
06/21/2016 at 11:33

I’m not English but if they pull out the euro goes poop and it would be very bad for the EU.

djmt1 > Malanga
06/21/2016 at 11:33

Put really simply, EU countries agree to trade as a bloc to make trade negotiations with other countries easier. To some being a part of the bloc is no longer worth giving up sovereignty required to be a member.

Supreme Chancellor and Glorious Leader SaveTheIntegras > scoob
06/21/2016 at 11:34

stop

djmt1 > scoob
06/21/2016 at 11:37

Next Oppo Census? We have one before?

d15b > djmt1
06/21/2016 at 11:39

I had thought the purpose was to tie the economies together to a point where war isn’t a viable answer?

djmt1 > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever
06/21/2016 at 11:40

I’d argue the Euro is bad for the EU.

Malanga > djmt1
06/21/2016 at 11:41

Ah, good to know. Thanks.

scoob > djmt1
06/21/2016 at 11:42

Yes but don’t worry, it was quite borked.

Sam > d15b
06/21/2016 at 11:43

Also allowing free transit between member countries to help boost tourism in member economies. As a whole, it makes a lot of sense in theory, but in practice it hasn't been going great.

scoob > Supreme Chancellor and Glorious Leader SaveTheIntegras
06/21/2016 at 11:43

Malanga > d15b
06/21/2016 at 11:43

I think war isn’t really viable at all for 1st and 2nd world countries, which is why most wars are fought over religion and political ideology, and often between a country and a non-state nation. None of the top 20 countries in the world have fought each other since WWII.

djmt1 > d15b
06/21/2016 at 11:45

Indeed and it worked but now the EU wants to take on a larger responsibility. That said the British have an opt out of “closer ties” so all the nonsense about a European army or The United States of Europe is a non issue for us.

duurtlang > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever
06/21/2016 at 11:50

The Brits don’t even have the Euro.

Supreme Chancellor and Glorious Leader SaveTheIntegras > scoob
06/21/2016 at 11:50

stop

d15b > Malanga
06/21/2016 at 11:51

I think the idea was floated at a time when war was still an answer. I’m not sure, to be honest.

duurtlang > djmt1
06/21/2016 at 11:51

As it is now, partly. You can’t really have countries like Germany on one end and countries like Greece on the other sharing the same currency. That’s just not comptible. A north-western Euro would’ve been a good idea though.

d15b > Sam
06/21/2016 at 11:52

The problem is that they are mixing economies which shouldn’t really be mixing. It’s like grouping shipbuilding and orange tree fields. Those probably shouldn’t be in the same basket.

d15b > djmt1
06/21/2016 at 11:53

Determining if the British wants to move forward with the upcoming EU changes and direction would be the correct way to characterize the issue?

djmt1 > duurtlang
06/21/2016 at 11:59

I say go further than segregating the currency and introduce a full blown tier system. The better your economy and the higher your contributions the higher tier you go. Having the same policies for countries like Germany and Greece is just dumb and bailouts can’t be allowed to be the default solution.

Brian, The Life of > djmt1
06/21/2016 at 12:00

FINE! Go ahead and pull out and cause the end of the EU ... just don’t come whining to us asking for help when you lot start fighting again.

Sorry Belgium.

Clemsie McKenzie > scoob
06/21/2016 at 12:07

Do you know when it’s coming up? I missed the last one, and for some odd reason, I like census(ses?si?)

djmt1 > d15b
06/21/2016 at 12:08

Exactly and to blunt, no we don’t. To think De Gaulle did say the British would muck up the European Project. I guess it wasn’t all Anglophobia (it mostly was).

djmt1 > Brian, The Life of
06/21/2016 at 12:15

Jeremiah Clarksonious. MMVIII.

“Belgium was invented so the English and Germans had a place to fight each other"

Cé hé sin > djmt1
06/21/2016 at 12:19

Not my decision, but as I see it the exit camp are using xenophobia as their main selling point and are not spelling out exactly what’ll happen if the UK leaves. Will they join the EEA, which includes Norway and Iceland? If the UK wants to continue trading on favourable terms with its largest trading partner then presumably the answer is yes, in which case they continue to pay into the EU, accept EU standards, accept EU immigration and have no say in any of this which seems to be a worse situation than what they have now.

There’s also the nonsense about suggesting that the Poles down in your local Costa are a danger to safety and the economy while the head scarf wearing descendants of those who came from the former colonies and their menfolk who have lived in the UK for generations are much more of a risk.

djmt1 > Cé hé sin
06/21/2016 at 12:22

That lack of a plan is my biggest problem with the leave campaign. As an organisation, I don’t like the EU. It’s a mess but then again so is the NHS and I wouldn’t give that up.

DipodomysDeserti > Malanga
06/21/2016 at 12:29

The most recent war in Europe was/is being fought by two 1st/2nd world countries though.

Malanga > DipodomysDeserti
06/21/2016 at 12:35

Certainly, but Ukraine isn’t in that top 20 economies. And Russia didn’t invade Crimea based on resources, so it was completely economically motivated.

DipodomysDeserti > Malanga
06/21/2016 at 12:47

It’s not a top 20 economy, but you said wars aren’t fought between 1st and 2nd world countries anymore, which they clearly are. And top twenty economies do fight wars among each other, they just don’t use bullets and bombs, and they don’t do it directly.

And Russia didn’t invade Crimea based on resources, so it was completely economically motivated.

Exactly, which is why your statement regarding wars only being fought over religion and political ideology isn’t true. Also, since Russia’s economy is based on natural resources, the two are pretty much one in the same. And they did invade Ukraine because of resources, as two of their major gas pipelines to Europe run through Ukraine.

Hoccy > Cé hé sin
06/21/2016 at 12:56

But wouldn’t GB have a lot more to offer to the EU than Norway and Iceland? Especially because they are a lot of people that would like to buy EU products? We mostly have oil money and fish, and a huge import tax on everything we also produce ourselves. A Brexit could mean a better EEA deal, since they have a lot more to use in negotiations.

Besides, with the increased immigration to Europe from the middle east and Africa I can’t see the open borders we have now last that much longer.

Malanga > DipodomysDeserti
06/21/2016 at 12:57

No, I just said it wasn’t viable. It can happen, but it doesn’t happen very often, especially compared to pre-WWII. But that’s my point. Big countries don’t fight each other because they would rather do it via markets and such. It would make more sense for the USA to impose sanctions over Russia after Crimea than to invade.

And I said “most wars”, not all.

I will admit I was mistaken in not clarifying that I meant top 20 economies, not top 20 countries.

DipodomysDeserti > Malanga
06/21/2016 at 13:08

Sorry, that was my bad. Yeah, it is definitely not viable.

scoob > Clemsie McKenzie
06/21/2016 at 13:14

Probably July or August, when everyone’s forgotten about it.

I’ll probably post a suggestions... Post... sometime so people can suggest questions/answers/help me fix stuff.

I’ll also announce it and repost it and put it in my name.

Krieger (@FSKrieger22) > djmt1
06/21/2016 at 13:18

Well, I would say that austerity is the root of much of Europe’s woes...

Cé hé sin > Hoccy
06/21/2016 at 13:18

Maybe, but nobody’s talking about it. The Leave people haven’t mentioned it at all and are concentrating on the xenophobia and “Brussels tells us what to do” arguments.

Clemsie McKenzie > scoob
06/21/2016 at 13:28

Looking forward to it!

Hoccy > Cé hé sin
06/21/2016 at 13:34

Well as it is now Brussels also to a large degree tells Norway what to do. Several EU demands we have to meet don’t really make sense here, but since we’re small and not part of the EU we have no way to discuss these demands in the EU-parliament.

d15b > djmt1
06/21/2016 at 13:59

Thanks for answering my questions! It really did provide some color and context to the upcoming decision.

What exactly does the EU want to do to evolve the institution?

Under_Score > djmt1
06/21/2016 at 14:27

I’m American, too, so I’m not an authority on the economics of Europe, but if Brexit means that Britain can control the mass Muslim migration, then Britain should definitely leave the EU.

I’ve read a lot of terrible stories about how the Muslim migrants are being supported because “Aww, their home countries are being ravaged by terror”, while the migrants are causing lots of trouble in Europe. I know Oppo is pretty relaxed as long as there’s an NSFW banner, but I don’t even want to describe what’s happening over there on here.

As an American teenager who hasn’t even ventured to the western part of my own country, let alone another country at all, a Brexit post wouldn’t fit well with my image, but I’m glad that I could give my personal opinions on this post. Thank you. I worry that the major outlets of Britain, such as BBC, Sky, etc. fail to see my perspective, but I’ve spent time on Breitbart London, which is how I know the current situation in Europe.

djmt1 > d15b
06/21/2016 at 14:29

Change Europe from a continent into a country. Just looking a the EU it’s already very close to being a sovereign state with it having it’s own borders, centralised bank and courts, currency, flag, and national anthem.

The two main components it’s missing, is having its own treasury and army. Both of which have been proposed and are currently being debated with the UK strongly against both to the point that they will be vetoed if pushed for under our current government.

FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem > Under_Score
06/21/2016 at 14:53

Isn’t Breitbart ultra conservative? I’d say if you are intersted in what’s happening here you should not only read/watch one news outlet.

djmt1 > Under_Score
06/21/2016 at 14:55

The UK has a method for dealing with a mass influx of migrants from Africa and Asia. It’s called the English Channel.

To be blunt, they’re not our concern because the rules state that you must claim asylum in the first safe EU country you land in. Nobody is landing first time in the UK.

The fear among many is that if we stay in the EU, we will be pressured into joining the border free Schengen zone and thus anyone will be able to walk(swim) into the UK without being checked.

As for media. Yes they see your view. In fact most of the media does. Fear sells papers and xenophobia is the hot shit of the moment. Everyone is terrified of the “swarm” and both sides are exploiting this to gain support.

No matter which way we go, the UK has the final say on our borders. We made sure of that a long time ago.

d15b > djmt1
06/21/2016 at 15:24

I would think that the UK would prefer autonomy given the fact they yet to adopt the Euro. But, it looks like the British will stay on if today’s news is to be believed.

djmt1 > d15b
06/21/2016 at 15:42

The Euro was unsuitable for the UK and failed a government 5 point test. A result vindicated by the Eurozone crisis.

As for autonomy. There is a misguided belief that London controls the rest of the UK when the reality is that the opposite is true. Hence a lot of the UK is cool with giving power to someone else because they’re used to it.

I guess in the end the spectre of immigration wasn’t scary enough but then again 3000 years of our history is literally built on immigration so yet again, I guess we’re used to it.

d15b > djmt1
06/21/2016 at 16:05

Fantastic, thank you for sharing.

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > Cé hé sin
06/21/2016 at 17:35

I’m saving this description to repeat in any of the discussions I have about this. Summed up perfectly as far as I’m concerned.

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > djmt1
06/21/2016 at 17:38

Yep. Even if I didn’t think that leaving the EU would be economic suicide, the leave campaign has so much membership from the nastiest and most ignorant members of our society that I wouldn’t want to touch it with a barge-pole.

I have actually heard cogent arguments as to why leaving might be a good idea (influence from non-elected officials in the EU as a governance issue for example), but none of it outweighs the potentially catastrophic consequences that leaving could have on our economy and our ability to have a say in what happens in the countries closest to us.

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > Under_Score
06/21/2016 at 17:51

I’d steer clear of anyone who’s harping on about a ‘mass muslim migration’.

The situation in the middle-east is so mind-bogglingly complex that just branding one particular set of refugees (probably from Syria based on recent events) purely as ‘muslim’ are trying to use the moral panic present surrounding the notion of ‘muslims’ to generate views.

It’s the political equivalent of a clickbait headline.

Not trying to sway your opinions at all. Just be careful of taking all your information from one place as each individual place’s agenda first and foremost will be ‘make sure we turn a buck’.

The only way to get a really broad view is to either try and get it from channels that purposely try and stay neutral (the BBC is one that does), and/or read a host of different sites so you can get more info/perspective.

Oh, one thing I will try and sway your opinion about is the idea that refugees shouldn’t be supported because they’re fleeing countries that are being ravaged by terror.

The forces that are at work in the middle-east are largely there because of the meddling that the west has done in middle-eastern politics for the best part of a century. Al-Asad (one of the worst people out there), has long been supported by western governments, and would have been out of the picture a long time ago without that support.

I’m definitely not saying we’re wholly to blame (there’s a whole mess of stuff going on in the middle east that likely would have still gone on without us), but we’ve done our fair share to halt progress and fuck things up.

That’s not to mention the fact that we should help people worse off than us due to common human decency.

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > djmt1
06/21/2016 at 17:56

That’s not a bad idea actually. Model it after the tax system, with tax breaks for poorer countries in order to stimulate growth. At the end of it you have a system that’s healthier overall.

djmt1 > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires
06/21/2016 at 18:10

My logic was more like how the football leagues work. Have an index that gives you a score based on GDP growth and net contributions to the EU budget.

Have the top 5 in tier 1. The next 10 in tier 2 with the remaining 12 in tier 3. New members would be placed into tier 4 for say a 5 year period at which point a new score will be assigned which decided where they move up to.

Now with regards to migration. People may only move up one tier from the nation they are registered from. However you may move down as far as you want one. My hope with the system is that it would allow separate policies for each tier which should avoid the problem blanket policies have caused in recent years. Plus like you said you offer incentives, levies and exemptions to the lower tiers to help boost growth in those lower tier countries.

Now all I need to do is come up with a way to fit promotion and relegation in and the football analogy fits perfectly. The threat of relegation to help convince countries to get their collective shit in order.

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > djmt1
06/21/2016 at 18:18

Sounds like a great plan :) only difference I’d say to the football system would be that there is no upper limit of countries in each ‘league’.

Perhaps the higher your tier, the more say you have in where the pooled EU budget goes, or the direction in which the overall EU strategy travels?

Nah, I don’t like that.

It’s hard to think of something that would be severe enough to provide a disincentive to staying a fucked up economy, but not severe enough that it contributes to the fucking up of said economy...

You can’t necessarily do it by having 4 tiers of money that are valued at different rates as that would just mean that if you’re an export manufacturing economy you’d fuck yourselves up by moving up a grade.

Tricky.

djmt1 > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires
06/21/2016 at 18:25

Tricky indeed. Out of curiosity, what’s your stance on a United States of Europe?

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > djmt1
06/21/2016 at 18:41

Interesting. Not sure I’ve given it much thought before.

Off the top of my head, I’d guess that it would do wonders for our joint influence in the world around us if done properly.

It’s the done properly part that would be bloody hard. Not only is it a logistical nightmare, but it would involve the melding of probably more differing cultures and languages into a single cohesive whole than has been attempted since the Roman Empire.

Tricky, to say the least.

If it were to happen today, I’d probably say it would be bad for my generation, possibly bad for my children, but my children’s children would be in a much brighter world.

The other thing that occurs to me. If that kind of an organisation is on the cards, then it’ll definitely happen with or without us. Would we be in a better position inside it or outside?

I’d argue that outside would be a very bad place to be.

bryan40oop > djmt1
06/21/2016 at 19:08

#HouseStark

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > djmt1
06/21/2016 at 20:33

american here.

I have yet to hear of what phase 2 of the brexit would be after leave. The vote would be to start the process. I don’t get the leave as britain would still have to negotiate trade deals, including accepting terms.

And Farage just seems like a massive dick every time he’s mentioned on US news.

Smartest thing the UK did was not join the Euro

djmt1 > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas
06/21/2016 at 21:18

Yo american, Brit here who should be in bed.

So where to begin. Well the reason why you haven’t heard of phase 2 is because there isn’t one. There was a plan that being Article 50 but apparently those pesky continentals will go out of their way to be as spiteful as possible in hope to sink Britain into the Atlantic.

That was a load of bollocks though because the Germans ensured they would be fair because it’s in no one’s best interest to draw this out. Well apart from the French who have been really mouthy lately.

Anyway Leave are cool with renegotiation because Britain can then #TakeBackControl and set the terms on Great British terms. Which to be fair, wouldn’t be so bad. We get properly shafted when it comes to Europe (as do Germany) but we’re continuously undermining (and loving it) everything the EU stands for. So I guess it balances out.

Now Farage is a cunt. A lying, racist, sexist, hypocritical, out of touch, lobotomised shitlarking, bollocking CUNT. Seriously fuck him, UKIP, Nigel Farage and of course himself.

Indeed, the Euro is a Shitshow and one we are happy to be away from.

So yeah, Britain continuing to lead the world in the most mundane of politics. At least there’s no moats or missing laptops this time.

Under_Score > FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem
06/21/2016 at 22:19

I don’t go out of my way to read about Britain; I just so happen to see info about the migration issue there and in the rest of Europe, and it stuns me how leaders such as Merkel are bringing these people in in the thousands. Is the situation really as bad as I think it is?

FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem > Under_Score
06/22/2016 at 02:11

I wouldn’t necessarily believe everything that one news outlet reports but that is also true for every other news outlet. The truth is somewhere between all of them. As for the migrant crisis, the way Merkel opened the border for millions was a bit overhasty and the ones that have to take the consequences are the counties and municipals in Germany and other European countries. But like I said somewhere else before, everyone else in her position would have done the same. You just can’t tell thousands of people fleeing from war to piss off. I haven’t had any negative encounters with any refugees, the ones that live in my town are relatively quiet. They are also rather young. The ones that seem to make trouble are Afghans, tbh. But no generalization here.